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Author Topic: How about a trike?  (Read 4951 times)

Offline Mitch

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Re: How about a trike?
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2010, 04:58:56 am »
Rediculous for 60K

Gotta keep in mind the cost of custom fabrication and making one off pieces that are show quality AND functional.

To put that cost into persepctive, look at the hours that went into my motor build (approx 330 hours).

Now, if it was just flat labor (which we charge $55/hr for), that would come out to $18,150 in just strait labor.

Now, add in the cost of electrical work (which is $75/hr), plus fabrication and welding (which is $95/hr) and the cost came up to over $24K in labor for what we did to the truck.....and that was already a working platform that was just being modified.

Add in the parts, the supplies, the fluids, the materials, etc.......$60K is pretty reasonable.

Add in the fact that you have a bike from one of THE top builders in the WORLD and it's even more reasonable.

Also, consider the fact that a run of the mill, production dresser bike can approach $30K and it's still just another Harley.

:up:
Judging from the pictures on the site, it doesn't look like there is a whole lot of custom fabrication done at all. I checked out other bike on the page, and the same.

For instance, the Black Bull. It is $50,000, $30,000 for the kit. Meaning, its all ready to go, you just need to paint the parts and put it together. 1, there isn't $20,000 in paint and labor to put a bike together. Maybe 10 hours to put it together, so call that $100 a hour in labor, that's $1000 bucks. At most $2,000 in a nice professional paint job, even that is pushing it hard for a bike with just a frame, and tank, and fenders for paint.

The bike. Rigid frame, or softail frame. They are using Harley frames, so they aren't even fabbing them. The tank, custom fabbed, as well as the oil tank. $4,000 combined. There is a lot of time put into tanks. Fenders are cheap.

I can go on and on. But there isn't $50,000 wrapped up in the bike. Now if you want to add tools cost and fabrication machinery. Then yeah, they have to justify they price of their equipment.

It can be done with hand tools in a garage for $20,000. I have seen it done, a pilot of mine built a kit bike, that looks by far more wicked than anything STREET-ABLE that I have seen come out of any of those elaborate custom bike shops. When I say street-able, I mean a bike somebody would actually ride, rather than a themed bike.

sorry man but it is more then 10 hours to assemble and wire a bike.  I would also be willing to bet that you are looking at 4k for paint from the shop he uses.  I would say he has a 10k mark up on it.
No way 4K for a paint job on a bike. The only way a paint job can get that high is if you are having some custom artwork done on the tank and fenders. You are looking at no more than 3 pints to paint a bike, frame, tank, and 2 fenders. You can look it up. I'll even throw out the most expensive motorcycle paint there is, House of Kolor, is roughly $100 a quart.  Factor in all the prep supplies, the 1 1/2 pint of clear, a total of $500 in supplies. Lets go with the safe number again, $100 an hour, lets call it 10 hours for a bike to paint, from prep, paint, bake, and touch up. That is $1,500.

You can try and justify $60,000 for a bike all you want. Unless you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Or you just want to take Rich's word for it. I do my own research, and what I have come up with is nowhere near $60,000 for a bike. Like I said earlier, you are paying for the name of the company who is building it. I painted parts of my first bike after I had gotten hit and went down, after everything was said and done, it was $70 bucks, and about 2 hours worth of work. That was partial fairing, engine cover, sanding, mixing, matching, all that fun stuff.

Just look at the last link I had posted. That bike was pretty extravagant, and nowhere near the price of $50-$60,000. Why? Because they aren't famous.
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Offline Mitch

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Re: How about a trike?
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2010, 05:04:59 am »
I will agree on the mark up though.

10 hours to wire and assemble a bike? Yeah. I say so. When I bought my first bike, it was pulled out of the crate, and assembled in under that. It was a dealership bike, Suzuki. You gotta think about what that all entails on a custom bike like that. Turn signal, headlight, brake lights, license plate lamp, starter (if equipped,) speedo. That is it. Wire that from a fuse box, and its done. Carburetor engine, no wires but the starter. All manual choke. Assembly includes the engine, oil tank, 2 fenders, fork package, wheels, and 2 belts. (Usually.)
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Offline Cumminalong

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Re: How about a trike?
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2010, 09:44:09 am »
So I say build it.

If it's that easy, do it.

If that's all there is, make it so. Be one of the top bike builders in the world.

You're talking like you could do this in your garage.

I'd be willing to put money that you couldn't DISASSEMBLE your bike in 10 hours.

You're overlooking so many things about that bike and how to build it that it's not even funny.

You don't seem to understand that you're not just looking at a BIKE, you're looking at a piece of ART.

Sure, I can grab some water colors and paint the Mona Lisa, doesn't mean it'll be worth a damn thing.

Putting together a Suzuki that came in a crate and was 90% assembled before it even arrived is NOTHING like building something like that. NOTHING at all.

Damn dude, you're talking like you've got the skills to do it, so get 'er done.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 01:19:15 pm by Cumminalong »

Offline Cumminalong

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Re: How about a trike?
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2010, 12:40:40 pm »
Looks like he breaks it down pretty damn good in my opinion.

http://www.exilecycles.com/index.php?section=69

What you also need to look at is the bike "kits" are not actually "ready to assemble" like that Suzuki that came out of the crate.

http://www.exilecycles.com/index.php?section=88

You need to make your brake lines, your wires, your harnesses, your cables, etc.

You also need to drill, tap and weld certain parts for different fitments.

The difference between that Trike and a Harley or a Suzuki is like the difference between a Honda Civic and a Ferrari. One is a run-of-the-mill, just-like-all-the-others bike that comes out of a box and is assembled on a line by generally unskilled labor, the other is a work of art done by a master craftsman who has his name on his work and his reputation on the line.

I know you don't have the equipment to do the paint, or the welding, or the alignment of the frames after they're cut, or the facilities to do it, or the employees to assist, or the cash that has to be fronted to even build it. You also don't have the overhead of a business to run and pay for. In order for that business to be profitable and keep the doors open, he needs to be making about 30% on top of the costs of those bikes in order to pay the bills and his employees.

Every time the valve gets cracked on the welding gas, that's $5. Cut off wheels.....those ain't cheap. Fluids, cleaners, tape, rags, etc.....that crap adds up and has to be figured into the cost. There's a lot more than most folks think that goes into something like this AND standing behind it if something is wrong.

Profit is not a dirty word. If it was as easy as you think, they're wouldn't be a market for custom bikes.

Skillz!.....He has them. You pay for them.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 01:26:51 pm by Cumminalong »

Offline spencea15

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Re: How about a trike?
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2010, 05:34:11 pm »
AZ there is a lot more to it then you think. I worked on building one in school and went to three different shops and saw what it took and the time it took. For assembly it was 2 to 3 days a bike with 2 people working on it on average. There is also more then just those three parts to be painted, you have oil tank, frame. There is more to it then you think
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Offline Mitch

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Re: How about a trike?
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2010, 05:47:39 pm »
Rich, you are twisting everything I said.

The bike in debate right now is the Black Bull, AROUND $50,000. Not the trike.
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Offline Cumminalong

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Re: How about a trike?
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2010, 06:10:03 pm »
We weren't discussing the Black Bull at all.

Regardless of which bike was being discussed, you made it out like you could do this in your garage and there is no way it justified the expense.

What you're not looking at, with any of these bikes, is the custom touches that go on them and the individuality that each bike represents when people do things like these.

The average guy rides a Harley, there's nothing special about them. Harley's have been turning gasoline into noise without the side effect of horsepower for a 100 years. They're mass produced, just like most of the market.

Look at the parts list of those $15K and $18K bikes you posted......there's a crap load of off-the-shelf parts on them that they get from someone else and put on the bike. They have exposed cables and brake lines, cookie cutter mail order head lights, etc.....they don't hold a candle to the Exile bikes.

The detail and custom touches is what sets his bikes apart.

While the bike may not be worth $60K to you, to the people that buy them they are worth every penny.

I'd look at it like my truck. Someone else may look at it and go, "It's just a truck and Blue Book says it's only worth $22K.".....Really?

I wouldn't pay $20 for the Mona Lisa because it has no value or interest to me. To me it's no different than, actually less valuable than, a child's picture on the refrigerator. But, to someone else it's priceless.

It's all a matter of perspective, but knocking someone else's work isn't cool at all. These guys are the pro's at this stuff and I think you're HIGHLY underestimating the skill involved by them and HIGHLY overestimating what you could build.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 06:12:48 pm by Cumminalong »

Offline lilfroger

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Re: How about a trike?
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2010, 06:55:04 pm »
Rich, you are twisting everything I said.


No Mitchel I don't think he is.  He is simply giving you a different perspective on things that your experience does not provide you the pervue to see.  If you feel it's a personal attack then it is your issue.

You came into this conversation by simply stating ...
Ridiculous for 60K


Rich took the time to give you an example; your own experience should be able to build a comparison with.  Showing you the hard numbers his company uses and a project that you, and all of us, have been following for months.



To put that cost into perspective, look at the hours that went into my motor build (approx 330 hours).

Now, if it was just flat labor (which we charge $55/hr for), that would come out to $18,150 in just strait labor.

Now, add in the cost of electrical work (which is $75/hr), plus fabrication and welding (which is $95/hr) and the cost came up to over $24K in labor for what we did to the truck.....and that was already a working platform that was just being modified.

Add in the parts, the supplies, the fluids, the materials, etc.......$60K is pretty reasonable.




To which you ignored the principals shown to you and proceeded to bad mouth the manufacture (Exile Cycles) in question.


Judging from the pictures on the site, it doesn't look like there is a whole lot of custom fabrication done at all. I checked out other bike on the page, and the same.

And began posting inaccuracies

The bike. Rigid frame, or softail frame. They are using Harley frames, so they aren't even fabbing them.

Exiles frames are manufactured by Daytec according to their site.  To Exiles specifications and standards. So no they are not just Harley frames.



I am personally very curious about your ball-park figures on the painting of a motorcycle though?  I would like to know what shop quoted you personally 2 grand for a "nice professional paint job"?
 
At most $2,000 in a nice professional paint job, even that is pushing it hard for a bike with just a frame, and tank, and fenders for paint.

I ask because I could never get a quote of less than $2000 to remove the clear on my tank, add stripes to tank and both fenders, and re-clear all three pieces. I personally quoted over a dozen shops.  Removing the clear to remove the Harley logo I'm sure added a lot of labor into the cost that would not be required for bar metal parts.  But as this is not my field I can only go with personal experience on what I have attempted to accomplish in the past.


You then interjected your personal experience in an attempt to justify your numbers

10 hours to wire and assemble a bike? Yeah. I say so. When I bought my first bike, it was pulled out of the crate, and assembled in under that.

Yet when again give more detailed information concerning the actual topic being spoken of you still can't admit that there is more to any one given issue than your own personal view.

Looks like he breaks it down pretty damn good in my opinion.

http://www.exilecycles.com/index.php?section=69

What you also need to look at is the bike "kits" are not actually "ready to assemble" like that Suzuki that came out of the crate.

http://www.exilecycles.com/index.php?section=88

You need to make your brake lines, your wires, your harnesses, your cables, etc.


No words are being twisted and the only feelings that are being hurt appear to be yours.
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Offline aka_chewy

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Re: How about a trike?
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2010, 08:35:08 pm »
Wow, didn't think the thread would take this route.  When I saw the price of $60K, I thought that was rather cheap relatively speaking.  Considering this list of used trikes range anywhere mostly from $30-$38k...USED.

http://www.trikeshop.com/shop/category/1/trikes-for-sale/

Bada$$ looking trike either way.  It's harder work and more expensive to get it to look "plain." 

Offline Mitch

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Re: How about a trike?
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2010, 10:15:02 pm »
Jo, take it easy. Sounds like you are getting pretty heated on your end of the keyboard, as usual.


Rich, I respect your outlook on that, and appreciate your perspective. But I still stand by my opinion. With that being said, I will add this in.

Sent to Freebirdscustommotorcycles.com

Hi. I need some information, if you could please help me out.

I am in a friendly debate of the justification of $50-60,000 into a custom bike. The builder the debate is about is exilecycles.com, their Black Bull bike. My debate is that bike shouldn't cost more than $20,000. Here is a link to the specific bike.
http://www.exilecycles.com/index.php?section=12

My argument is, you are paying for the name of the build shop, not the cash value of parts and labor into the bike, with normal inflation for profit.

Could you please help me out here?
Thanks,
Mitchell Keith Peterson Jr.

Reply email:

Mitchell, In defense of Russell at Exile who I know, allot of the parts on that bike are his own billet parts that he designs and sells. And he is always a perfectionist on cleanliness. If that's what you want, that's what you pay. However, I could easily build a close resemblance for around the $25 to $30,000. price range with all new components. The style of the bike is more like a low budget garage build and with that in mind I could do one for about $15 to $20 grand tops. Just do it real clean. I hope this helps you out in this debate. Thanks, Rick

I hope that clears things up.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 10:42:36 pm by Az2500Cummins »
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Offline kenz

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Re: How about a trike?
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2010, 12:29:03 am »
I just thought it was a cool bike.  :suicide:


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Offline Mitch

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Re: How about a trike?
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2010, 12:49:06 am »
I just thought it was a cool bike.  :suicide:
It is cool.
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Offline lilfroger

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Re: How about a trike?
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2010, 03:57:06 am »
Jo, take it easy. Sounds like you are getting pretty heated on your end of the keyboard, as usual.

au contraire mon friar

My post was very carefully worded calculating your response based on past confrontations.  My goal was 100% achieved too.


Rich, I respect your outlook on that, and appreciate your perspective.

Never expected or intended you to change your opinion.  The joy of opinions is everyone has one.  It's about the respect and seemingly constant push in your posts to push other peoples buttons.  Intentional or not; that is how they come across.

:)
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Offline sanddragonslayer

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Re: How about a trike?
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2010, 05:06:32 am »
wow i hadn't planned on this much action hahaha. I'm very happy that everyone played nice.  :)
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Offline Mitch

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Re: How about a trike?
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2010, 05:46:28 am »
Jo, take it easy. Sounds like you are getting pretty heated on your end of the keyboard, as usual.

au contraire mon friar

My post was very carefully worded calculating your response based on past confrontations.  My goal was 100% achieved too.


Rich, I respect your outlook on that, and appreciate your perspective.

Never expected or intended you to change your opinion.  The joy of opinions is everyone has one.  It's about the respect and seemingly constant push in your posts to push other peoples buttons.  Intentional or not; that is how they come across.

:)
Touche
 :lol:
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