270799 Posts in 19739 Topics - by 1829 Members - Latest Member: Simplesimon

Hello Guest
Show unread posts since last visit.
Show new replies to your posts.

Author Topic: Mopar ATF4+  (Read 20265 times)

Offline lilfroger

  • Administrator
  • Mechanical God!!!
  • *****
  • Posts: 13251
  • Not a "god" ... I just talk a lot
  • Awards:
    ROTMDonorARMYMOTY
Re: Mopar ATF4+
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2009, 02:38:02 am »
Thank you for the back ground and digging info Tommy!

Like I said I could only post what I could see.  :D
Install, Owners, & Service Manuals for many years & makes:
http://www.scribd.com/lilfroger

Offline Tommygunz

  • 2009 Fantasy NASCAR Champ
  • Regular Member
  • NASCAR Crew Chief
  • *
  • Posts: 5856
  • Rocket Surgeon
  • Awards:
    ROTM400HPAFDonor
Re: Mopar ATF4+
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2009, 01:40:49 pm »
No problems...

To make it certain what I hace said, D/C created their ATF+ thru ATF+4 Tranny fluids in an attempt to  change or help the shifting problems their transmissions were having instead of redesigning the transmissions. Not too surprising right. Chrysler then started prefilling their transmissions with their fluids and said use of any other would void the warranty until a Magnussen Moss suit was filed. At that point rebranding and blending was authorized, but licensing was only sold to four companies. Several other are now on the list.

The point is still however, if you use something other than Chrysler ATF+4, or a licensed rebrander and you have an issue, the fluid is to blame until proven otherwise. A little backwards from the regular courts system, but this isn't courts, this is auto manufacturer warranties. Amsoil Universal ATF was formulated to exceed the specifications of many different Manufacturers specifications.   

Amsoil has been in business making premium synthetic products for many applications for over 35 years. They strive to be the class leader and stand behind their products 100%

I am not saying that as an advertisement or in defense of the ATF+4 debacle, just stating fact.
2007 Mega Dually Laramie,Garmons Diesel Performance Tow Transmission, Edge Juice+CTS, Custom intake, Banks Smartlock & Exhaust Brake,Air Bagged Rear Axle, Kenwood DNX 7160 NAV system, Aero 4040xl, Bushwacker Pocket Front Fender Flares, Surco 50X60 Roof Rack, Homegrown Rhino'd Rockers and Bed, Functional Scooped Fiberglass Hood

Offline DBLR

  • Master Technician
  • ***
  • Posts: 1707
  • Awards:
Re: Mopar ATF4+
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2009, 07:30:02 pm »
I ran Royal Purple MaxATF in my truck for about 6 months.  It did seem to shift a tad better at first but with in a month it was getting worse.

I do BELIEVE my TC was already starting to bake before I ever put the Royal Purple in my transmission so I'm NOT saying that RP baked my trans!

But when the truck was in the shop I did some research on if I should put the RP back in or go with something else after they were done.

Dave reminded me that up until a few years ago no one made a ATF+4 for Dodge except Dodge.  It was a proprietary formula.  That got me thinking OK who does Dodge allow to make their special secret formula then?

First thing I learned was that the Mopar ATF +4 is a full synthetic right from the factory.  Our automatic transmissions never run a dino oil in them.

Next thing I learned is some brands are licensed to re-brand: just use the same formula as Chrysler and some are licensed to blend: modify the formula with in specifications.

The most interesting part I learned...is neither Royal Purple nor Amsoil (Tommy / Ray you find me proof that Chrysler has licensed them to reblend and I'll change this) are on their list.

http://www.centerforqa.com/licensedatf4brands.html

Advance Auto Parts ATF+4®
Carquest ATF+4®
Castrol ATF+4®
Chevron ATF+4®
Citgo Transgard ATF+4®
Coastal ATF+4®
Conklin ATF-Xtra Plus ATF+4®
Formula Shell ATF+4®
Great Wall ATF+4®
Havoline ATF+4®
MAG 1 ATF+4®
Mobil ATF+4®
Mobil Super ATF+4®
Mopar ATF+4®
MotoMaster ATF+4®
NAPA ATF+4®
Northland ATF+4®
O’Reilly ATF+4®
Parts Master ATF+4®
Parts Plus ATF+4®
Pennzoil ATF+4®
Petro-Canada ATF+4®
Quaker State ATF+4®
Ravenol ATF+4®
Sinopec ATF+4®
Super Tech ATF+4®
Texamatic DC ATF+4®
Ultramax ATF+4®
Valvoline ATF+4®

I'm sticking with Mopar ATF4+ from now on.

Hate to tell you this but Mopar ATF is not Full Synthetic, its made from Group III crude oil base stock. If you want 100% Synthetic ATF then use Amsoil Universal ATF.

Below is from the Allpar website and I quote: 
 
"The use of Group III base oils is probably the leading cause for ATF+4 being a more expensive fluid than ATF+3 (which according to the paper uses a Group II base oil).

Contrary to popular myth, one of the stated goals of Type 9602/ATF+4 fluids was that it would have the same frictional characteristics as ATF+3. The paper explicitly states that this was because new clutch materials would not be introduced for this fluid and it had to be backwards compatible with ATF+3. Graphs in the paper show that the friction coefficient of fresh ATF+3 and ATF+4 is essentially identical, but as the fluid ages ATF+4 retains the “as new” coefficient while ATF+3 degrades. Lubrizol developed a new shear-stable viscosity index (VI) improver specifically for ATF+4.

The paper noted that one alternative was to use synthetic Group IV base stock, which are even more expensive than the ATF+4 solution, which provided Group IV style performance from Group III stock. ATF+4 meets strict low-temperature, oxidation, and volatility performance requirements and relatively low cost — believe it or not."

From Allpar about oil base stock:

Group I base oils can have a mix of different hydrocarbon chains, with relatively little uniformity; these oils are the least refined. They are usually not used for autos.

Group II are the most common base oils in “dino juice,” with good performance in most areas except cold temperature viscosity.

Group III are called synthetic, and have high molecular uniformity and stability. Group III oil bases are used in most synthetic oils.

Group IV are chemically engineered stocks, arguably with the highest performance and longevity.



2006 QC SB 4x4 3.73 Nerf Bars,
2011 Dodge Grand Caravan RT,

Offline jrsavoie

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • Awards:
Re: Mopar ATF4+
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2015, 08:53:06 am »
transmission acting up again this year in the cold.
Last year after it got cold the transmission was not acting right.
It does not shift fast enough and will slip if you rev the Jeep.
It did the exact same thing last year. Shifting slow and will slip if you apply to many RPM's
Worked fine all summer.
I have Amsoil ATF that is Type 4 rated.

Any ideas on what My issue might be? Are there any additives that may help?

It's garaged every night - unheated garage, but garaged.

It helps considerably with the shifting when the Jeep has been plugged in all night and it shifts fine after being fully warmed up.

Not necessarily when the thermometer shows it's warm, but after it has been run long enough that the transmission is warm

Is there a good additive for this transmission fluid?

Offline lilfroger

  • Administrator
  • Mechanical God!!!
  • *****
  • Posts: 13251
  • Not a "god" ... I just talk a lot
  • Awards:
    ROTMDonorARMYMOTY
Re: Mopar ATF4+
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2015, 04:14:45 pm »
ATF4+ has a low temp rating of -40 C ... that's really cold! Not unheard of in the great white north but really cold. You didn't mention if you changed the fluid last year when you noticed the issue; how old is the fluid?
Install, Owners, & Service Manuals for many years & makes:
http://www.scribd.com/lilfroger

Offline soonerb

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Newbie is a relative term. I will correct you!
  • Awards:
Re: Mopar ATF4+
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2016, 09:11:25 pm »
 :eek:
Dug a bit deeper, here is what I have found.


Chryslers hold on the ATF+ thru ATF+4 patents is real. They created it to fix sifting problems their trannies had in the first place. In 1999 ATF+4 was prefilled in some transmissions in the factory and by 2000 all chrysler transmissions were using ATF+4 except the mini vans.

They also did offer the rebranding and blending to four oil companies back then. Amsoil has applied for the licensing but D/C has denied them and several other companies at every turn. There was a suit filed under the Magnussen Moss Auto Warranty law, but I am uncertain of the outcome of that.

What I can tell you as a fact is that Amsoil Universal ATF outperforms D/C and other licenced ATF+4 oils on every level. Amsoil created their own additives to add to their current Dexron Mercon universal blend ATF to make it compliant.

I can get better info later.. Some of this is hard to research on a Sunday night.

I agree with the timing discussed in the quote, but lets dive a little deeper.
ATF+ was originally developed for the torqueflite in 1957 with the best lubricant and a big dose of friction modifier to help the clutches hook. It was delivered in rail car loads to each assembly plant and was never available to the general public until mid 1970's. The lockup converter issues in 78 really sealed the deal and it was made available to dealers from Mopar for the first time. The service fluid before that was dexron since it was a better oil than type F even though type F had better friction properties.
 I ran type F for a while in torqueflites and they shifted great but would grind themselves to pieces. ATF+ was updated a couple of times in production (ATF+2 and ATF+3) until Lubrizol and Texaco were hired to develop an extreme pressure lube as loads and torques went up  with V10, Hemi, and Cummins trucks. ATF+4 actually has a different mil spec and mopar spec number and was classified by the SAE in their tests as a full synthetic. ATF+4 was so good it would fix other manufacturers shift issues and DCA began using it as factory fill on power steering also since it is an extreme pressure lube suited to vane type compressors like power steering pumps. Menards has valvoline ATF+4 available for 5 bucks...there really is no need for any other fluid for any trans or power steering. The lone exception is the green CVT+4 that goes in Chrysler and nissan CVT rides. It can actually handle extreme metal to metal contact.
I put Castrol syntorq in my nv3500 but only because it is over 200k. After a rebuild I will put atf+4 in it also.

 

Questions, Concerns, Comments? Contact DOF Administrators
DodgeOwnerForums.com is not affiliated with Chrysler Group, LLC or Cummins, Inc